Did You Hate TokyoPop Because It Was a “Teenager” Company?

Did You Hate TokyoPop Because It Was a “Teenager” Company?

You know, I honestly thought I wouldn’t be writing a lengthy piece on TokyoPop after I had posted my TokyoPop license-rescue wish list. However, after reading Lianne’s insider thoughts on TokyoPop’s closure and her speculation on the reason people hated TokyoPop so much, I had to respond but I didn’t want to fill her comments section with my bloviating. So I debated on whether to write or not, put this on the back burner, and then decided that I’ll write my own post instead, as I have time. ^_^  Please note that my comments aren’t intended to be a slam on Lianne, who’s written an interesting piece, but rather to express my disagreement with that opinion because Lianne is still a believer (though I wouldn’t say she’s a “Kool-Aid drinker”).

The thesis of Lianne’s article is that TokyoPop took an excessive amount of hate from fans (compared to other manga publishing companies) for being an in your face company that also is a “teenager” company; hiring teens and catering to teens. Since Lianne worked freelance for TokyoPop, her opinion is interesting and for me, quite surprising.  I don’t know about you, but if you asked me, “which manga company is a teenager company,” I would immediately respond, “Viz.”  After all, Viz has a “Shonen Jump” line (teen males) and a “Shojo Beats” line (teen girls).  If anything, I saw TokyoPop as a pioneer for getting manga treated properly in the U.S. (unflipped, Japanese honorific usage, etc.) but who’s leader, Stu Levy, wanted to be hip and cool and thus lead the company to ruin in that pursuit.

So, without further ado, lets examine Lianne’s interesting piece and discuss points she’s making.

Manga companies have been dropping like flies the last few years, and the online communities have been almost unconditionally sympathetic in light of the jobs lost and the titles lost…until Tokyopop died, at which point the vitriol came out.

I’m sorry, Lianne, but the vitriol for TokyoPop started long before TP died.  Were I to spend a great deal of time tracing it, I’d say it started when TokyoPop decided that the way of the future was Princess Ai and Stu Levy suddenly became “DJ Milky Milk on the Super Fly Tip, Yo!” (or whatever he called himself).  For us manga fans, Princess Ai was NOT manga but that aside, TokyoPop seemed to be wasting a lot of time and money on crap rather than promote something actually decent (as I ranted about in 2007).

Onto Lianne’s next point.

 What the hell is it with people and Tokyopop? Why did every business decision they made cause screaming and outrage, when those same business decisions are made by pretty much every other manga company with nary a peep? They even responded to criticism, changing or even reversing their policies if they were too unpopular (remember Dragon Head going “online only”?). The bad contracts were their own monster, and Tokyopop did some bad there and paid for that one, but I was never convinced they deserved that amount of anger and boycotting for protecting their own interests while hiring unknown artists no one else would take a second look at. And I’m pretty sure Tokyopop didn’t go around shooting people’s dogs, so I’ve been mulling on this deep-seeded Tokyopop hate for a while now.

No, TokyoPop didn’t go around killing other people’s dogs, and yes they communicated with paying customers about their poor business decisions.  However, to say there was no anger or the like at other companies is a complete misnomer.

For starters, let’s look at Viz.  When Viz first released the Maison Ikkoku manga, not only was it flipped, but entire chapters were excised and the story was re-written in places to supposedly make it more acceptable to American audiences.  Folks also complained about poor translations of the manga in general (though “translation” and “adaptation” may be being interchanged here).  When Viz re-released Maison Ikkoku on manga, it was still flipped even though the standard laid out by TokyoPop was unflipped and the translations were still considered sub-standard though the formerly removed chapters were returned the the manga.  There were tons of complaints about how Viz inconsistently handled Inuyasha and a scanlation group even engaged them on how their adaptation of the manga was well received vs. Viz’s adaptation.  I know it is only anecdotal, but I heard many a paying manga fan say that they would not be purchasing Viz manga.  I was also in that group, though my reasons also included Viz’s refusal to use Japanese honorifics.

When Del Rey ventured into the manga publishing waters, one of the first things they told fans was, “We’ve licensed Negima!“, and there was much rejoicing.  Then Del Rey said, “We’re going to have to self-censor the manga’s art,” and there was much anger and boycott talks. Del Rey listened to the fans and backed down, opting to shrink-wrap the manga (something they didn’t do for very long).  Del Rey bought themselves a lot of love by having manga that “kept it real,” including the usage of Japanese honorifics, and the use of translator notes.

Need I go into the CMX fiasco?  I think they got WAY more hate in their short time as a manga publisher than TokyoPop did because they wanted to cater to a teen market.  They failed.

So, there are three examples of how manga companies made poor decisions and heard about it from fans.  Del Rey did bite the dust, but only because Kodansha Comics basically swallowed up their manga division while keeping ties with Del Rey’s parent company in terms of printing.  In the case of Viz, they’ve made no efforts to really rectify problems cited with Maison Ikkoku or Inuyasha (at least, not that I’m aware of), but manga titles like RIN-NE, Hayate the Combat Butler, Honey and Clover, etc.  prove that they too have been listening to fans even though they may not feel like listening to them completely and fixing old stuff.  Still, the fact that they’d release manga the way I wanted (for the most part) means that I’ve purchased a fair amount of Viz manga in the last couple of years.

What about the other point made in which the article states that other companies made the same business decisions as TokyoPop but didn’t get any hate for that?

Well, that too is a misnomer as far as I’m concerned. After all, I’m unaware of any other company shifting their paper to low-grade crap and then charging more for the privilege.  Am I wrong here?  I don’t recall other unpopular TokyoPop decisions being mirrored by other companies.  Bad decisions are bad decisions and we paying customers let them hear about it.

Next up, the reasons for the hate against TokyoPop.

My best guess is that Tokyopop was a “teenager” company. It mostly published books for teenagers, it included a fair number of teenagers in its staff, and the changes and/or mistakes that drew criticism – paper changes, printing/typing errors, wacky editorial decisions – were things teenagers mostly don’t care about. They cut corners and were less concerned with pissing off older fans and/or critics than they were with keeping their young fanbase. Hell, older fans and/or critics were constantly pissed off at the company, anyway, even when they tried to be up-front or change policies, so I’m surprised they didn’t blow off the critical community entirely. (I certainly gave up trying to defend Tokyopop to particular critics because it was too exhausting.)

Its true that teenagers likely aren’t going to care as much about some things.  After all, teenagers and their limited disposable income are perfectly fine with using scanlations only, even if the official translation rocks in every way (Japanese honorific usage, translator notes, “otaku” type adaptations, etc.)  However, teens live on the Internet these days.  As such, teens become educated by older or knowledgeable fans on things.  So while in the 90’s, a company might have gotten away with crappy cost-cutting, in 2010’s, that crap just isn’t going to fly, especially if one is expected to pay MORE for the crap.  After all, there are always scanlations.

As to why TokyoPop didn’t just blow off the critical community entirely, could it be because we were the ones actually paying TokyoPop?  After all, who has more disposable income — a teenager living with Mommy and Daddy or an adult with a job that pays the bills with some left over and a passion for manga?  Even if you go with teenagers who’ve moved away from home, are they going to have the disposable income of an adult fan?  No.

In my mind, TokyoPop understood who actually paid their bills at the end of the day and it wasn’t teenagers.  As I’ve already said, teens would be perfectly fine with scanlations so they could use their limited income on other things.  I know that there were teens who would go to bookstores and read all the manga but never paid for it (which is why some argue this is one of the reasons for Border’s collapse). They may have wanted to be a teen company for teens, but teens couldn’t pay the bills.  Hello, CMX.

Lianne’s next point.

Tokyopop was IN YOUR FACE and ZANY and WHEE! most of the time. Considering how much of the manga industry taps into the desires of IN YOUR FACE and WHEE to sell books every day, I never would’ve thought that the company whose mission statement explicitly centered on that would rub so many older fans the wrong way.

I had no problem with an “in your face” strategy or attitude on the part of TokyoPop.   However, the only things I saw them being “in your face” about were things I didn’t give a rat’s patootie about — you know, Princess Ai and the like.  Many of us older, paying fans wanted TokyoPop to be “in your face” about other things, like the Slayers light novels, the Full Metal Panic light novels, or some other manga titles we liked.  We wanted REAL manga to be promoted, not the term “manga” be redefined as TokyoPop seemed so keen on doing with their OEL lineup.

Lianne continues.

So to those of you who were complete and utter assholes celebrating the end of Tokyopop, let me ask you more directly: Do you hate the fact that young people worked for Tokyopop and were catered to by Tokyopop? Are these kids actively clogging up your lawn with their loud friends and their “crappy” comics?

Well, I’m not sure how much actual celebration was going on but I don’t doubt there were some. I’d be willing to bet that the biggest celebrators were “kids” — late teen and early 20-something fans (yeah, they do this blogging thing too and can be quite vocal and have more followers than I).  Speaking for myself as an older fan, when TokyoPop died, I praised the company (and thus the employees therein) for the good stuff they did and didn’t dwell on the negative.  I had no clue that TokyoPop had a ton of young employees.  As to catering to teens, Viz always seemed like the more teen-friendly company while TokyoPop desperately tried to be hip and failed.

Lianne:

You’re not seeing the big picture. The manga industry isn’t just about you. Teenagers are people too, and in many facets of the industry, they outnumber you by about a billion.

But when it comes to paying for manga, we apparently outnumber them.

Lianne:

Stop pretending like you and your ilk can keep the manga industry afloat alone, because you can’t. This is a group effort. If you actually want manga to succeed in English, you have to stop hating on the teenagers and their cheap, “crappy” comics.

Sorry, catering to the lowest common denominator is NOT the way to go.  But, when teens get large, disposable incomes, I suppose they can support all the crap they want.  I never hated on “teens” and neither did anyone else I know.  We hated on a company that treated paying fans with major disrespect.

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe TP should have kept printing their manga adaptations on low-grade crap paper; maybe TP should have continued to allow their manga adaptations be filled with grammar errors; maybe TP should have expected people to pay even MORE for this; and maybe TokyoPop should have adapted their manga in the manner that I often see some teens speak in on in forums or chats. [sic] u no lke thsi see we dont ned no edastion an teens ar da bast  I bet their sales would have gone through the roof.

Maybe not.

The kids don’t hate you. Hell, they don’t even know who you are!

And vice-versa.

But the only reason you get manga for adults in English is because manga for teenagers sells enough to fund manga with limited appeal (see: almost every seinen and josei that exists).

Heh.  I’m trying to think of how many seinen titles I own — as of this writing, four I think (Ai Yori Aoshi, Ah! My Goddess, A Bride’s Story, and Basilisk – The Kouga Ninja Scrolls).  I’ve never scored a josei title and a few shoujo titles. Everything else for me has been shounen.  My favorite manga titles are shounen.  I’m not alone there as there are a lot of older manga fans who enjoy well-written shounen titles. Negima! anyone?  We older fans support a lot of younger titles but sshhhh! Don’t tell anyone. ^_~

To all you teenagers out there: don’t worry, some of us still have your back. Just like Tokyopop did.

I have teenagers back too, only not to cater to the lowest common denominator.  One does not have to sacrifice quality to appeal to teens.  If I’m wrong, then no wonder this country is going down the crapper.

Still, isn’t it disrespectful to teens to suggest that manga has to remove quality controls, be printed on crappy paper, and have a higher pricing structure in order to cater to them?  After all, aren’t they smarter than that?  Instead of catering to the lowest common denominator, why not raise the bar and make everyone happy?  If you build it, they will come.

So for me, my times of irritation at TokyoPop had nothing to do with teenagers.  They didn’t even enter my mind.  For me, it all boiled down to Stu Levy’s self-promotion and desperate attempts to be “cool”; it was TokyoPop’s decisions to lower quality but then expect me to pay for the privilege; it was TokyoPop’s decision to not heavily promote manga, but to heavily promote Princess Ai.

I agree with Lianne that TokyoPop’s departure from the manga publishing world is not helpful, especially for those of us hanging in the wind for titles we were collecting.  However, this is the perfect opportunity for companies like Seven Seas, Dark Horse (if they can keep to a release schedule), Yen Press, or other company to license-rescue some titles and thus improve those company’s bottom lines and without reducing quality or trying to become to hip to be square.

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23 Responses to “Did You Hate TokyoPop Because It Was a “Teenager” Company?”

  1. Ultimaniac says:

    As one of those early 20-somethings, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I don’t think Tokyopop’s NA downfall is a thing to be celebrated, but I don’t think it should necessarily be missed. It’s more of a disappointed feeling over bad decisions.

    One moment of reading that sticks with me from years ago, before I started thinking of things like publishers and translations, was when I was reading a volume of Initial D and the term “sugar daddy” popped up. I remember thinking how stupid it sounded. It was probably one of the first things that led me to start looking for scans online. If I, with my limited knowledge of the original works could single out something like that, I can only imagine how the older fans felt with these localizations.

  2. arimareiji says:

    For some reason, this reminds me a lot of the answer we frequently heard last decade to explain why terrorists do horrible things: Because they “hate freedom”.

    No, they don’t. They hate what they perceive as (YMMV) destroying their countries and religions with puppet governments, forcing everyone to do as we say, keeping them from establishing Sharia law… you could actually say they love freedom. But what they love is an extremely perverted version of it that needs to be understood in order to defeat it.

    Chalking disagreement up to hatred of what “we” (whoever “we” is) love is the opposite of communication. It’s a flippant, empty way of dismissing anything the other person has to say. And although I don’t get the feeling it was intentionally meant that way, it’s extremely insulting.

  3. Cholisose says:

    I feel Tokyopop did a lot of great stuff, but perhaps should have just focused on quality manga releases rather than on their image so much. Lots of unnecessary (and likely fund-consuming) projects toward the end there. It’s good to experiment I suppose, but at the end of the day the core fan base really only cared about manga (and potentially light novels–though Tokyopop didn’t really stick with those as well as I would have liked).
    It’s a shame, but I’m sure other companies will pick up some of their big-name series.
    – Cholisose

  4. Apollo says:

    Great, here we have yet another fan who thinks he knows better than the people who actually worked at the company…

    Listen my friend, if you have such a perfect understanding of what manga companies need to do, why are you still sitting around writing your blog? You should start your own company and do it right. Since you seem to have the answers to everything, I’m sure you could easily revolutionize the industry. I’d especially like to see you handle the mob of know-it-all fans who’d still hate on your company for a million reasons even if you did everything right.

  5. Anonymous says:

    I think you totally missed the point of Astro’s article, Apollo. He’s not saying he had all the answers but he’s saying that he didn’t hate teenagers. I didn’t either. I did hate being asked to pay a higher price for manga that was of less quality. If TP asked me to pay more for better quality, I wouldn’t have complained at all.

  6. Apollo says:

    @Anon: I beg to disagree, the titular point was clearly only an excuse for writing this piece. The real point was to give a patronizing lecture to someone he rudely labeled “a believer” and her former employer. And why not, after all any self-absorbed fan knows so much more about the manga industry than those who actually work in it.

  7. Sandy says:

    I agree with many of your points, AstroNerdBoy, but I honestly don’t understand the need to go ahead and antagonize this person now, weeks after she wrote her original post. Especially since she seems to have written it mainly to release her pent up emotional frustration from the aftermath of Tokyopop’s demise. Sorry, it just seems a little inconsiderate to me.

  8. Anonymous says:

    I’m happy to agree to disagree with you, AstroNerdBoy, since you’ve never been anything but polite.

    But arimareiji, I strongly suggest you NEVER EVER AGAIN compare the situation of the comic book industry to the plight of innocent people who are murdered after decades of political machinations have left thousands dead and pitted giant chunks of the world against each other because of ignorance and hatred. I can’t believe you have the nerve to call my commentary insulting after making a comparison like that. What the hell were you thinking?

  9. Anonymous says:

    Sorry, last one was me, forgot to sign it.
    -Lianne

  10. arimareiji says:

    @Anonymous, I’m sorry you took it that way. I tried to make it clear enough that even a listener whose mind was already made up would realize that I was comparing only the dismissive “it’s because they hate XYZ” and nothing else. Self-evidently, I failed to do so, for which I apologize.

    For the record, though, I still find dismissing others’ opinion with an unfounded “it’s because they hate XYZ” flippant and insulting, no matter who does it. Also, I’m not sure why you think you have any reason to take personal offense at the comparison. Even if you believe I meant it literally rather than to illustrate a point, then I would be comparing myself – not you – to the terrorists in this analogy.

    @ANB, my apologies for bringing this kind of conflict to your blog, especially given that I know you were trying to avoid creating it. This’ll be my last post on this subject, though perhaps it would have been better to have never made the first.

  11. Tenka says:

    Seeing as both bloggers seem extremely opinionated about the subject and wanted to vent those opinions, I have to fight my instinct to agree with the one that put the most effort into being polite, although it does help their case. Nobody’s said so far that the death of a company is a good thing, and as fans we can all lament titles that are lost mid-serialization. I have to agree with ANB though, that the demographic of TP’s employees was probably never a factor. I don’t care and never have cared about the ages of the employees at TP or any company, because that doesn’t mean anything when I’m reading manga, and I think almost everyone cares just as little as I do. You could be ten or seventy years old, and if you translate a series well, then I, and anyone that can afford to, will read it. TP’s unusual policies didn’t resonate well with the public, and as such, like any company, they suffered the unfortunate consequences.

  12. Pillslanger says:

    Why all the hate for Astro? This is his blog where he posts his opinions. Did he ever state that he knew everything about the state of the industry or that he knew how to magically fix Tokyopop’s problems?

    For me, they never carried titles that I really read (that I know of). As I look through all of my tankoubons (I have roughly 150) none of them were published by Tokyopop. I see some Viz, Dark Horse, Del Rey, and ADV.

    It’s also not like I only read a few titles either, I regularly read over 10 titles and have read over 30, and still I can’t think of anything that Tokyopop published that I read or wanted to collect.

  13. Apollo says:

    @Pillslanger: What hate for Astro? He posts his opinions, we post our opinions about them. If you don’t care about TokyoPop, don’t bother posting like you know me. All I was saying was if he’s so smart to know all the issues better than an insider can then why isn’t he out there doing a better job? I don’t like it when people bloviate from the sidelines without ever having been in the game. And that “believer” label really wasn’t cool, even if Lianne didn’t seem to mind it.

  14. SadOldGuy says:

    I miss Tokyopop, as the entire “unflipped” format kept me reading manga for 15 years, buying thousands of translated volumes. But I figured the writing was on the wall when Fruits Basket ended and they no longer had a USA Today top ten bestseller series.

  15. Pillslanger says:

    This is ANB’s blog, of course people are going to support him.

    Also, you invalidate any point you are trying to make by being hyperbolic making statements suggesting if he knows better why doesn’t he do it himself.

    Come back with good points and not pointless rhetoric and perhaps you might be taken seriously. I never hinted that I might know you, but somehow your (again) hyperbolic statement is supposed to be valid in contrast?

  16. AstroNerdBoy says:

    Heh! Even though I joked about this article, I’m still surprised at the draw it has had. ^_^;; Thanks to everyone who took the time to write.

    One moment of reading that sticks with me from years ago, before I started thinking of things like publishers and translations, was when I was reading a volume of Initial D and the term “sugar daddy” popped up. I remember thinking how stupid it sounded. It was probably one of the first things that led me to start looking for scans online. If I, with my limited knowledge of the original works could single out something like that, I can only imagine how the older fans felt with these localizations.

    A term that used to come up a lot when I first came into anime/manga fandom was “domestication.” For me, it was the use of “Little Washu” in the first two Tenchi Muyo! Ryo-ohki OVA’s. It drove me batty and that’s when I started learning of Japanese honorifics on top of other changes that would be made to supposedly make an adaptation more palatable to Western audiences.

    And although I don’t get the feeling it was intentionally meant that way, it’s extremely insulting.

    No, I don’t think it was meant to be dismissive. I didn’t find it insulting but it did trigger me to write. ^_^;;;

    …at the end of the day the core fan base really only cared about manga (and potentially light novels–though Tokyopop didn’t really stick with those as well as I would have liked).

    TokyoPop didn’t handle light novels well at all IMO. That’s another issue though.

    It’s a shame, but I’m sure other companies will pick up some of their big-name series.

    I sure hope so.

    I’d especially like to see you handle the mob of know-it-all fans who’d still hate on your company for a million reasons even if you did everything right.

    Kinda like this comment, where I’m getting my chops busted for something that wasn’t the subject of the article. ^_~ The point of the article was that (1) I never associated TokyoPop with teenagers and (2) other companies received a ton of hate other than TP. I pointed out three of them in the piece. I disagreed with the notion that TP shouldn’t have listened to paying customers because other companies did and survived. Del Rey is the exception because Kodansha Comics took them over.

    I think you totally missed the point of Astro’s article, Apollo.

    He did, but actually, every time I write an article like this, it seems that I get at least one person who ignores what was written. If I plan to write more, it is something I have to get used to. Thanks for the defense. ^_^

    The real point was to give a patronizing lecture to someone he rudely labeled “a believer” and her former employer.

    Rude? Calling someone a believer is not rude and I made sure to point out that I did not believe she was a Kool-aid drinker. Calling her that is something I would agree with as being rude, insulting, or demeaning but not being a believer. There’s nothing wrong with being a believer, but maybe you think there is. ^_~

    I agree with many of your points, AstroNerdBoy, but I honestly don’t understand the need to go ahead and antagonize this person now, weeks after she wrote her original post. Especially since she seems to have written it mainly to release her pent up emotional frustration from the aftermath of Tokyopop’s demise. Sorry, it just seems a little inconsiderate to me.

    It wasn’t a piece intended to antagonize Lianne. I liked her article, even if I disagreed with her points, and her words inspired me to write. Nothing wrong with that IMO. ^_^;;;

  17. AstroNerdBoy says:

    I’m happy to agree to disagree with you, AstroNerdBoy, since you’ve never been anything but polite.

    Thanks, Lianne. ^_^

    TP’s unusual policies didn’t resonate well with the public, and as such, like any company, they suffered the unfortunate consequences.

    It wasn’t the only factor, but it was certainly a big factor.

    For me, they never carried titles that I really read (that I know of). As I look through all of my tankoubons (I have roughly 150) none of them were published by Tokyopop. I see some Viz, Dark Horse, Del Rey, and ADV.

    What? No Fruits Basket or Ai Yori Aoshi? ^_~ Thanks for the defense. ^_^

    I don’t like it when people bloviate from the sidelines without ever having been in the game. And that “believer” label really wasn’t cool, even if Lianne didn’t seem to mind it.

    I have been in the publishing game, both on the retail side (4 years) and on the publishing side (6 years).

    As to the believer comment, I have already addressed that and Lianne wasn’t offended so why are you?

    I miss Tokyopop, as the entire “unflipped” format kept me reading manga for 15 years, buying thousands of translated volumes.

    Actually, it was TP’s unflipped manga that got me so angry with Viz and with Dark Horse, both of whom seemed to refuse for a long time to change. I ranted and raved about them back then and praised TP for getting that right.

    But I figured the writing was on the wall when Fruits Basket ended and they no longer had a USA Today top ten bestseller series.

    Actually, when they started massively slowing down the release schedule for Fruits Basket, combined with TP trying to further capitalize on Furuba, I knew things didn’t look to great. Don’t get me wrong, I approved of further capitalizing on Furuba, but it didn’t look good that nothing else they had seemed to do as well.

    @Pillslanger — thanks for the defense. ^_^

  18. Apollo says:

    @AstroNerdBoy: You know my friend, if you’re going to publish on the Internet you better get used to people not always agreeing with you, them’s the breaks. Especially if you moderate your comments, it’s pretty lame to complain about people busting your chops when they respond in a way you didn’t expect. Maybe your regular readers always agree with you, I just clicked at an interesting title at Anime Nano and I have no obligation to you.

    Whatever else you think I should have gotten out of this article, it still doesn’t change the distinct impression I got that you think you know the manga business better than the companies and the people working there do. Of course no one in their right mind is going to come out and directly say they have the answers to everything. I’m sure though you and everyone here have at some point or another gotten this impression about some writer. To say a person never explicitly said they know best means nothing when it’s well evident from their manner.

    What you said about having been in the publishing game was interesting, but also so vague that it could mean anything. Unless you want to give us something more specific, it’s not really saying a whole lot. “Retail experience” in particular is not exactly a strong qualification as we all know. You weren’t in the manga business anyway.

    I’m Jewish so I have no problem with people who believe, but whether there’s anything wrong with believing wasn’t the issue here. In a debate, when you claim your opponent is a believer, you’re saying that person’s judgement is impaired to an extent. Even if you generously add they aren’t a completely irrational Kool-aid drinker, it definitely doesn’t help their credibility to be labeled a believer. So I say it’s a rude thing to do if you want to have an honest debate.

    @Pillslanger: Since you’re such a stickler for who said what exactly, did I ever say you couldn’t support AstroNerdBoy? I saw no meaningful support though, only a random accusation of hating him, so it’s funny to see you complain about me using hyperbole. If you don’t know me, don’t act like you know I hate someone; simple enough. See the second paragraph above as well.

  19. AstroNerdBoy says:

    You know my friend, if you’re going to publish on the Internet you better get used to people not always agreeing with you, them’s the breaks. Especially if you moderate your comments, it’s pretty lame to complain about people busting your chops when they respond in a way you didn’t expect.

    People disagreeing with me isn’t a problem. However, when their comments are not to disagree with the points I’ve made but simply put out a general negative post without specifics, then that’s busting my chops. Kinda like the guy who complained that I wasn’t reviewing Gundam properly or with the right attitude even though my reviews of Gundam have been identical to every other anime I’ve watched.

    To say a person never explicitly said they know best means nothing when it’s well evident from their manner.

    Nice to know you are a mind reader as well as a critic of me. ^_~

    You weren’t in the manga business anyway.

    No, but while you dismiss the retail aspect, it does give me great insight to how the game is played on that end. On the publishing side, I’m not going to publish my entire resume, but I’ve been involved in the actual editorial and publishing process for a major book publisher.

    In a debate, when you claim your opponent is a believer, you’re saying that person’s judgement is impaired to an extent. Even if you generously add they aren’t a completely irrational Kool-aid drinker, it definitely doesn’t help their credibility to be labeled a believer.

    I don’t think it has anything to do with her credibility. My citing her as a “believer” simply means that it is my opinion that her opinions are based from that vantage point. That does not invalidate her opinion and it establishes where I’m coming from based on where I believe she’s coming from.

  20. Apollo says:

    People disagreeing with me isn’t a problem. However, when their comments are not to disagree with the points I’ve made but simply put out a general negative post without specifics, then that’s busting my chops. Kinda like the guy who complained that I wasn’t reviewing Gundam properly or with the right attitude even though my reviews of Gundam have been identical to every other anime I’ve watched.

    Apparently it is a problem because from what you said earlier, you seem to assume that when people respond in a way you didn’t expect, they must have ignored what you actually wrote. I’m sorry to be “negative”, but that can happen when I react to a bloviating post. I don’t think I need to bring up specifics when I’m specifically talking about the post as a whole. I obviously can’t comment on your Gundam issue and fail to see its relevance here.

    Nice to know you are a mind reader as well as a critic of me. ^_~

    I can tell you my secret: simply reading the text will suffice if it accurately conveys what the other person had in mind. You don’t have to take it so personally, I’ve said similar things to other fans who act like just because they’re fans, they have some sort of special insight the industry people lack.

    No, but while you dismiss the retail aspect, it does give me great insight to how the game is played on that end. On the publishing side, I’m not going to publish my entire resume, but I’ve been involved in the actual editorial and publishing process for a major book publisher.

    That’s incorrect, I didn’t dismiss the retail aspect, I said that without specifics it doesn’t mean anything. Am I supposed to take vague claims as evidence? I think you know perfectly well what “retail experience” typically stands for, and even someone working in a mail room could claim to be “involved in the process”. It’s totally up to you how much information you want to give out and I’m not going to pester you about it, but so far this is way too vague to establish your qualifications.

    I don’t think it has anything to do with her credibility. My citing her as a “believer” simply means that it is my opinion that her opinions are based from that vantage point. That does not invalidate her opinion and it establishes where I’m coming from based on where I believe she’s coming from.

    Even if we assume you didn’t mean it that way, a label like that still does exactly what I said. At the very least, it gives her the aura of poorly founded subjectivity, while you present your viewpoint as the objective one. To do so from the start is disrespectful.

    Now my friend, the thing is, I haven’t seen you deny my impression that you think you know better than the manga companies. You’re even trying to build up your qualifications in that regard. If you’re not going to deny what I observed, we can stop now and there’s no need for you to lay more smoke cover.

  21. Anonymous says:

    I had a feeling Apollo was a troll when I first responded to him but now I know it. He has his agenda and you are falling for it Astro.

  22. lore says:

    But the only reason you get manga for adults in English is because manga for teenagers sells enough to fund manga with limited appeal (see: almost every seinen and josei that exists).

    Pffft. We all know that what really keeps manga for adults afloat is BL/YAOI sales.

    (*snicker* I kid, but with Viz advertising for a BL editor, you really have to wonder!)

  23. […] I despise TokyoPop with a passion. No, I take that back. It’s Stu Levy, aka “DJ Milky” (’cause […]

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